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| Thread: Stronghold building prices bug fix. | |
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted February 05, 2016 08:37 PM |
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Edited by Baronus at 22:39, 05 Feb 2016.
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Baronus
In Heroes III is a significant error. It is a mistake to the prices of the essential building of cyclops and behemots. This leads to the absurdity of the cyclops does not give to ransom and behemots are already in 2 day. Hota tried to improve it. After seeing the table I stated that the error is simple. Replaced the number of crystals and ore behemots and cyclops. 20.20 and 10.10. We need to reverse it.
I made the appropriate fix. Just move the folder data table building (seeing with such is not there because will be removed:-), and already. You can also use the Mmarchive and put it to bitmap.lod. Here it is: fix bug Heroes III with the prices in the stronghold:
http://supershare.pl/?d=4716EF952
Now you can see how it should look like the correct game stronghold. The end of the behemots in 2 day. You will be the first who play properly. I encourage you to share to impressions:-)
...
Edited.
Thanks for critic it is very helpful. That ist 3rd version. Only cyclops 10,10. Rest is the same. I think that is correct version:
http://supershare.pl/?d=99DA934E2
Now you can buy cyclops. And stronhold is most powerfull.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted February 05, 2016 09:13 PM |
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Edited by Casihasi at 21:15, 05 Feb 2016.
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Was fine as it is (with 20 crys for cyclops) for multiplayer, in return you had 1 Behemoth day 2 and Behemoths in general were cheap but weak without the ancient upgrade...
that was certainly not a bug and i liked the old way, too much messing around with stuff there.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted February 05, 2016 09:41 PM |
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There is a bug beecause all 6 level building costs 10 and 10 resorces. Only cyclops costs 20 and 20. And 7 level buildings cost is 20 and 20 see Castle eg. Behemots 10 and 10. There is imposible build cyclops. You can like it your right. I dont like it.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 05, 2016 09:55 PM |
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Yeah, I doubt anyone will use this change. Error or not, stronghold is not over or underpowered as it is now, is just fine -considering online statistics. Btw, tower 7th tier is not 20/20.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted February 05, 2016 10:13 PM |
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Edited by Baronus at 22:25, 05 Feb 2016.
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Only basic tower building is 20,10 but upgrade is 20,30! So summa is 40,40 like all. :-) In stronghold is 40,30. Ok. Hydra is 20,10 and 40,30. But cyclops 20,20? All 6 level is 10,10. Bug is evident. Stronghold is weak but creators do it. I dont ballance town. I only fix. I use it and will never play bugged because I want play cyclops normally. Cyclops elimination is nonsense. I will prepare 10,10 and 20,10 too.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted February 05, 2016 10:54 PM |
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They did it right in HotA, moving crystal cost of cyclops building to upgraded cyclops building imo.
That way you can at least buy basic cyclops, but you will have to pay crystals later, so cost remains how it always was.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted February 06, 2016 02:54 PM |
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Wasn't this done rather much on purpose? Forcing the player to choose between Behemoths or Cyclops? Also keep in mind that the Cyclops is the only tier-6 creature that can shoot - as well as function as a siege engine during siege attacks.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted February 06, 2016 05:41 PM |
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Maurice said:
Wasn't this done rather much on purpose?
Of course it was.
Plus, the huge advantage of being able to get level 7 creatures on week 1 (even on impossible difficulty and sometimes even with citadel, as well - also on impossible!) had to be counterbalanced somehow, therefore you have to make the choice. I mean, goblins, wolfs, Rocs and 2 or 3 Behemoths at the beginning of week 2 ... what more would you want ... (and a pack of orcs, sometimes)
And even lowering the cost of the unupgraded building is too much messing with the original balance, I'd think.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted February 07, 2016 12:19 PM |
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Edited by Baronus at 12:22, 07 Feb 2016.
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Thanks for answers. Conclusion is.
Cost of behemot liar is correct because hydra building cost is the same. 20,10 and 20,20.
Cost of cycloos 20,20 is a bug because most powerful 6 level units cost 2X less.
Stronghold with only one flier and only one shooting unit, weakly orcs is the worst city in game. Capturing cities is a big disaster. Creators gived cyclops siege weapon to boost this weakly faction in city fights but they made mistake and blocked buing cyclops by astronomical costs of resources. Fix with 10,10 for cyclops repair this bug. And is agreeable with other 6 level buildings.
http://supershare.pl/?d=99DA934E2
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted February 07, 2016 12:40 PM |
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But you know, Cyclops are 2nd most powerful shooter you can recruit in Castle, also barbarians often get Archery Tactics, Air/Earth Magic, and Ballistics, or even Artillery + Archery for Ballista is good for 1st month, see creeping with Gurnission. Also consider that Ogres base building cost 20! wood, where most towns have 5 wood 5 ore requirements.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted February 07, 2016 05:44 PM |
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Damage of shooters*growth/week compared.
For each town:
M. Gremlins A. Mage Titan Total
Tower: 32-64 56-72 80-120 168-256
Marksman Zealot Total
Castle: 72-108 60-72 132-180
Orc C. Cyclops K. Total
Stronghold: 28-70 64-80 92-150
Storm E. Ice E. Total
Conflux: 24-96 36-84 60-180
Grand Elfs Total
Rampart: 84-140 84-140
Evil Eye Medusa Q. Total
Dungeon: 42-70 48-64 90-134
Power Lich Total
Necropolis: 66-90 66-90
Lizard W. Total
Fortress: 36-90 36-90
Magog Total
Inferno: 32-64 32-64
For each unit:
UNIT DMG AVG
Grand Elfs 84-140 112
Titan 80-120 100
------------------------------- +100
Marksmen 72-108 90
Power Lich 66-90 78
------------------------------- +75
Cyclops King 64-80 72
Zealot 60-72 66
Arch Mage 56-72 64
Lizard Warrior 36-90 63
Storm Elements 24-96 60
Ice Elements 36-84 60
Evil Eye 42-70 56
Medusa Queen 48-64 56
------------------------------- +50
Orc Chieftain 28-70 49
Master Gremlin 32-64 48
Magog 32-64 48
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted February 07, 2016 06:06 PM |
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Yea cyclopses are pretty weak...i'm sure most stronghold players would rather have a good melee L6.
They have low hit points, can be blocked with full melee penalty, and they just don't really fit into the chaaarge! setup of this town.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted February 07, 2016 06:18 PM |
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Baronus said:
Thanks for answers. Conclusion is.
Cost of behemot liar is correct because hydra building cost is the same. 20,10 and 20,20.
Cost of cycloos 20,20 is a bug because most powerful 6 level units cost 2X less.
Stronghold with only one flier and only one shooting unit, weakly orcs is the worst city in game. Capturing cities is a big disaster. Creators gived cyclops siege weapon to boost this weakly faction in city fights but they made mistake and blocked buing cyclops by astronomical costs of resources. Fix with 10,10 for cyclops repair this bug. And is agreeable with other 6 level buildings.
http://supershare.pl/?d=99DA934E2
What you are doing is comparing fully built towns, ignoring that Stronghold has arguably the best native heroes, and low gold cost with the ability of fast L7.
This only makes (some) sense if you play one of those rich, spoiled MP maps where the player gets heaps of gold (then again, they would also get enough crystal for cyclops...) and basically everything for free.
On poorer maps, you would appreciate the benefits of strongholds fast start (in the standard version of the game).
Also...while they are weak in storming castles (but so are many other towns, it's just an overall bad situation and why "town sitting" was so annoying), they were feared in open field.
Nah i don't agree buddy, you are trying to equal a game out that was so popular among other things *because towns were different*.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted February 07, 2016 06:57 PM |
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Edited by Baronus at 19:02, 07 Feb 2016.
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Interesting tabel:
For each town:
M. Gremlins A. Mage Titan Total
Tower : 32-64 56-72 80-120 168-256 Amage no melee penalty no wall penalty
Evil Eye Medusa Q. PLUS HARPY!!!! Total
Dungeon : 42-70 48-64 16-64 106-198 No melee penalty stoneing.
Marksman Zealot Total
Castle: 72-108 60-72 132-180 Zealot no melee penalty
Orc C. Cyclops K. Total
Stronghold: 28-70 64-80 92-150
Storm E. Ice E. Total
Conflux : 24-96 36-84 60-180
Grand Elfs Total
Rampart : 84-140 84-140
Power Lich Total
Necropolis: 66-90100-135 Area attack plus 50% maybe
Lizard W. Total
Fortress: 36-90 36-90
Magog Total
Inferno : 32-64 48-96 Area attack plus 50% maybe
Stronghold without cyclops beacuse costs: 28-70 END!!!! Maybe 2 on end... Totally weak....
For each unit:
UNIT DMG AVG
Grand Elfs 84-140 112
Titan 80-120 100 no mel
------------------------------- +100
Marksmen 72-108 90
Power Lich 66-90 78 112 area!
------------------------------- +75
Cyclops King 64-80 72
Zealot 60-72 66 no m pen
Arch Mage 56-72 64 no m pen no walll penalty
Lizard Warrior 36-90 63
Storm Elements 24-96 60
Ice Elements 36-84 60
Evil Eye 42-70 56 no mel
Medusa Queen 48-64 56 no mel p stoneing
------------------------------- +50
Magog 32-64 48 72 area!
Orc Chieftain 28-70 49 SECOND ON END! Maybe third.
Master Gremlin 32-64 48
.....
Of course it is not correct beacause there is no attack point! It gives 5% more damage for point.
But as you see Stronhold without cyclops is absolutly end of castles. Cyclop is in the middle of 6 level units. No bonuses to shoting. And is hard to build. As you see something is wrong. And this is bug with costs.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted February 08, 2016 12:07 PM |
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Thank you. I'm glad it's appreciated. Yes Att/Def is not considered, but those are modifiable from prim. stats, spells and specialties. Damage/time, in my opinion, displays the true offensive potential of the unit. E.g. imagine you're Rampart versus Castle with two high leveled high stats heroes fighting, and it's your GE's turn. Let's say your opponent has 18 AA, and you have 120 GE. You cast Frenzy on the GE's, which puts their damage output on a maximum. The 120 GE's will then be able to remove 11-18(19) AA's in one attack!
I think it's interesting to see that despite Stronghold holding the second highest level shooters (3, 6), it's only a little better than two of the other 3 shooter towns and Rampart, while Castle with lower level shooters (2, 5) has far more damage potential.
On topic, I certainly wouldn't mind if the Cyclops Cave would cost e.g. 10 less crystal. My experience is that Stronghold can rush level 7's at the cost of Cyclopes and then if the opponent builds castle, it's usually easy for him to defend his town.. Alternatively the town can rush Cyclopes and destroy the walls, but I personally find it very difficult to take an enemy town with Orc's, Ogre's and Cyclopes..
Because of the building order of the town, I don't find any significant advantage if the Cyclops Cave would cost less.. if you get both Behemoths and Cyclopes you'd have spend so much time that most other towns would probably also have their level 7's by now. A possible problem could be the powerful barbarian hero gets much better than the opponent main, but then I'd imagine Stronghold would already hold an advantage on rich maps. Also if you're going to split the Cyclopes to take down walls, it means less room for other stacks. Finally the most important battles probably won't be against an enemy town, and then I don't find Cyclopes to be that special to be honest.. they are probably the second best shooters on their own, but I think one can pose much more danger with a unit like the GE.
So I think perhaps the main reason it doesn't do much difference is because the Cyclops unit isn't that great to begin with, but I certainly wouldn't mind week 1 Cyclops Cave.
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MeCho
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 22, 2016 05:40 PM |
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The Cyclops are very cost efficient so are Ancient Behemoths having both would be too good for them
Id like to see the Crystal cost of Cyclops level 1 dwelling decreased and Behemoth level 2 dwelling increased
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phe 
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted March 22, 2016 05:49 PM |
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Edited by phe at 22:57, 24 Mar 2016.
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MeCho said:
The Cyclops are very cost efficient so are Ancient Behemoths having both would be too good for them
Id like to see the Crystal cost of Cyclops level 1 dwelling decreased and Behemoth level 2 dwelling increased
I would set it 10/10 for Cyclops and 10/10 for Behemots...if it only were two kinds of crystals...or Cyclops' dwelling price should be 10/10 or 5+5/5+5 of sulphur or mercury...
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batoonike
Known Hero
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posted March 22, 2016 08:43 PM |
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Baronus said:
There is a bug beecause all 6 level building costs 10 and 10 resorces. Only cyclops costs 20 and 20. And 7 level buildings cost is 20 and 20 see Castle eg. Behemots 10 and 10. There is imposible build cyclops. You can like it your right. I dont like it.
Balancing happens between towns, not individual creatures. Is stronghold the weak town?
When considering individual creatures one may ask is this creature underused in that town? For cyclops it might be true but reducing their cost without other changes in town will overpower the previously balanced town, as it now gets more power from easier cyclops.
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted March 24, 2016 09:42 PM |
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I would set Cyclops Cave price:
10 wood 10 ore no crystal, upgrade 5 wood 5 ore 10 crystals
Also reduce wood cost of Ogre Fort.
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